Changing The Narrative Through Fine Arts with Lekgetho Makola

In this episode we head to Javett-UP to  explore how artists are using their expression to change the narrative around how men and black people are depicted in media and fine arts. To help unpack this topic I'm joined by the exceptionally talented and experienced CEO,  Lekgetho Makola.

We discuss his journey in fine arts and learn how his exposure to international markets sparked a growing interest in shifting the colonial culture in artistic establishments. We also look into how social media is used to highlight the negative aspects of our culture and dehumanize people struggling with depression, drugs and other addictions. He describes his father as a hard person who taught him all about resilience, responsibility and the will to persevere by doing things by himself. 
We then talk about the link between the arts and a spiritual journey which leads many untrained artists to depression. We end off by discussing the latest works happening at Javett-UP and how you can enjoy some of their latest showing in the coming months.

Lekgetho Makola was appointed the new CEO of the Javett-UP Arts Centre. Lekgetho joins Javett-UP from the Market Photo Workshop and has many years’ experience in arts administration. Lekgetho was the first African in over 60 years to chair the World Press Photo Awards General Jury in2020 and served on the Art Bank of South Africa Acquisition Committee in 2018 and 2019. His artistic philosophy is embedded in social justice and advocacy as an International Ford Foundation Fellow – Social Justice. Under his leadership, the Market Photo Workshop won the Principal Prince Claus Award in 2018.
He was born in GaSekhukhune, Limpopo in 1974. He studied fi ne arts at the Durban Institute of Technology and completed an MFA degree at Howard University in Washington, DC.

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Transcript

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Hi and welcome to Manned Up Conversations where we connect with evolving men to

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discuss issues around masculinity and manhood and also provide tools to help us be

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better for our society.

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When I was initially invited to participate in one of their smaller programs,

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I was quite vocal in terms of how,

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for example,

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guys from New York Times,

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National Geographic,

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think about photography from the Guardian in London.

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These are like top establishments, right?

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And I said, representation in images can be a killer.

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You know,

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how you,

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for example,

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you put an image of a dead white person in front page,

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totally different how you do it for a black,

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for a non-white.

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right there is a limit of dehumanization in it but but many people are not even

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aware of that the fact that they're doing that because they are stereotyped in

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thinking that this is how these people live and this is how they think about their

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life they don't cherish life because they believe that we don't cherish life in

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many ways that's how they portray us in images right

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And these are highest top media houses.

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So engaging them, I think, promoted me to be the chair of jury.

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And in that, I commanded that people have to think out of their comfort zone.

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So thank you for tuning in.

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And if you enjoy the show,

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please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share with your friends and

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family to help us reach our fellow brothers and be part of the evolution as men.

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Thank you.

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Man, welcome to another installment of Manned Up Conversations.

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I'm quite excited today because I'm sitting with, like I say, sometimes I get to meet these legends, man.

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And I'll explain why I call Mr. Likhetu a legend.

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But before you get into all of that, how are you doing, Mr.?

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I'm doing good.

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It's, you know, the first part of the year is generally hectic.

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You know, it's because you're closing off the previous year.

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the finances, the reports, the evaluation.

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Did we achieve what we wanted to achieve?

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But at the same time it becomes exciting because you're anticipating things to come.

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Different things because you learn from your previous year to make things better.

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Yeah, especially in our world.

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You know, the art world is exciting always.

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I love that.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, I was here a couple of, probably, was it just over a month ago, something like that.

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I heard about the space, the Javet Art Center, or do you call it Javet UP?

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How do you actually...

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Well, I mean, you know, there's all these challenges with organizations named after people.

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But yeah, we call it the Javid UP.

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Okay.

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That's their brief.

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But it fuels the Javid Arts Center at the University of Pretoria.

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Okay.

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There we go.

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There we go.

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So I came through,

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man,

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and I walked into this beautiful space where you've got all this gold,

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this ancient gold,

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and everything in there is just so majestic.

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And I was like, man, I feel like I traveled back in time.

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But let me not make this about me, but we're here to talk to you, man.

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And you're the CEO here, and you've had a wonderful journey.

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So let's get back into that.

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Mm-hmm.

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For a black guy like myself,

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it's not every day you get to meet someone who gets to rise to your level in terms

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of art.

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Although I would love to believe that art is actually a black thing, but you can debate on that.

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So how's your journey, man?

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Let's hear about it.

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How did you get into this?

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And yeah, what are some of your influences?

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Yeah, I mean, I get this question all the time.

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And it's always difficult to frame it.

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But I know I have this pictorial mind of how everything evolved.

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I come from a family of 11.

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I'm the sixth child.

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From Gaskukune, a place called Skornort.

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Very, very...

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West European name.

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There's actually a place called Skronot in Poland.

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So Skronot is one of the first colonial station in that Limpopo, the east part of Limpopo.

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So

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I mean, I believe that my father was also artistic in one or another.

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Or his father, rather, not him.

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So the artistic band started showing in higher primary schools.

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you know, to secondary.

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By the secondary level, I was already drawing cartoons in our high school magazine in the 1980s.

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Also having pen pals, you know, in Europe, writing letters, making those drawings.

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In lower primary in the village, I used to, they used to ask me to draw the fish for them.

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You know, we black people learned about the locusts.

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Yeah.

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So you were that guy, we were all coming to Rayman, the head of my team.

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Yeah.

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Give me a half a cent.

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And I'll do those.

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I think it just became something that I like doing.

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And also I think I was a little bit introverted in ways, even though I'm from a big family.

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So I kind of found a little bit of solace in doing these artistic things.

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But also I think television had a big role in it.

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Introduction of TV in South Africa, I think it was 1976.

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We bought our first set in early 80s, I don't know, 81.

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Okay.

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A small thing like this.

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Yeah.

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And the whole village used to come and check it out.

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You had to do the whole YNAB show.

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Yeah.

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And attached to a battery.

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I think we are moving back to that because batteries are becoming a norm in our homes, right?

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As inventors, but there are batteries, quite a bit to watch television.

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And animation, you know, there used to be the lai lai.

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So this animation used to really, really intrigue me.

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You know, like these are drawings, you know, because they're not real people.

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I want to do this one day.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Wow, man.

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That's such a wonderful story.

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And I always say to people or the people that I get into conversation with is,

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you know,

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if you draw back to your earlier days,

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that's where you actually find,

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that's where your gold is.

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And now you mentioned what you come from a big family and it's a wonderful thing.

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And it's kind of unfortunate that, you know, black families are now opting for like,

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Yeah, we'll do two kids and a dog.

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You know, getting rid of all of them.

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Hey man, I want a whole squad of family.

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And you speak of introversion, man, which I am someone who considers myself an introvert.

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So as a guy, how did you navigate, you know, that's the challenge, I believe, you know.

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And if you're the quiet one, it was often like, you're such like an odd one out of the bunch, you know.

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So how was that experience for you?

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Well, I think it's a...

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I mean, obviously you have one father, one mother, right?

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And they have to take care of this.

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I mean, obviously the last born is 1987.

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Sure.

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Growing up, still a lighty.

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It was a tension that...

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has to be spread across.

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So if you did not get it, then, you know, you need to find your space.

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But also,

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I was kind of removed for a bit and lived with my grandmother about,

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you know,

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100 kilometers from my original village.

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But I think the most difficult

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Biggest change came when I went to a boarding school in 1986.

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So I think boarding school shifted my perspective around friendship, but also being away from home.

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You start realizing that you have to be self-sustainable.

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So you have to be independent.

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You have to grow fast.

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That's where you learn the tricks of the streets.

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You know, the street, the...

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The tricks of the dark alias,

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how to become a man,

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a young man among other young men,

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but also it was a mixed,

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it was male,

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female,

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and other,

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I guess,

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boarding school and just a church school.

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Okay.

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So there were this kind of cushion,

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like,

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you know,

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spirituality was from part of our day-to-day existence.

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But at the same time,

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there were politics around,

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you know,

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soldiers used to come in and search the whole place because some of the activists

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used to hide in our boarding school.

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So there was never moments of stability, you know.

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You were always on your toes, right?

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And imagine you're like, what, 13 years old, 12, 13 years old.

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So I grew fast.

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I grew fast.

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I think I got matured sooner than I should have.

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I think it cut across all my...

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P.S.

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during that time.

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So transitioning from a village,

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big family,

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1980s,

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into a boarding school,

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there was a major shift,

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let me put it that way.

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Okay.

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And that, you know, there's an article I read, man, where you're actually in...

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Am I right to say the Vogue Italia?

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A couple of years ago, I think it was 2021 or something like late 2020, right?

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Or early 2020s.

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And I was like, man, this man is on a Vogue magazine.

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You know how many guys,

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or black guys for that matter,

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from Has Kukuni get to make it to that magazine,

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you know?

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So you obviously traveled,

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talking about being in boarding school,

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talking about exposure to different sets of friends and that.

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How did this exposure to

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Getting to that market now,

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because you studied overseas as well,

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your MBAs and all of those other levels.

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Sure, sure.

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How is that market different from the South African market?

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And also just the exposure of just messing around and getting dirty with the guys over there.

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How did that kind of build?

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How are you seeing the eyes right now?

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Look, I think, I mean, South Africa has always been a powerhouse in terms of culture.

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and exporting culture,

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you know,

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from dance,

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from,

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you know,

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from music,

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you know,

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from,

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you know,

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the greatest exports of African music,

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not just South African music.

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South Africa is sophisticated because of the multiplicity, right?

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There's no single genre of style, right?

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If you listen to music from the rest of the continent,

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from your north,

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Algeria,

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Tunis,

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Egypt,

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coming down to Sudan,

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Ethiopia,

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it's almost,

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there is a character of that particular.

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Even Nigeria, there is a character.

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But South Africa,

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you're hit with Mahotela queens to Black Coffee, you know, to Mapiano, to Brahu, you know, to Takamiya.

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So there are these multiple kind of cultural elements that makes this multicolored

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South African culture that is quite unique and an inspiration to the world.

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So I think that...

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I embodied that in terms of how I thought, my worldview.

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I always felt that there's no single truth.

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Construction of meaning either through poetry or song is multiple, it's multi-layered.

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And I think that equipped me when I began to enter the international space.

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You know,

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my first Europe or outside of South Africa experience was getting an internship,

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securing an internship

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in Rotterdam, in Holland, at Museum van Buijmen in around 2004.

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I was brought in because that museum,

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one of the top museums in Holland,

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if not in Europe,

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they have the largest collection of works on paper.

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They, for the first time, hosting an exhibition, a solo exhibition by an African artist.

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Artist name is Yinka Jonibari.

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He is Nigerian, but of, it's like British of Nigerian origin.

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So basically it's Nigerian living and working in Nigeria.

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in Britain, the UK, to be more specific.

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My interest around what I was around audience development,

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because obviously I was the first cohort of post-apartheid graduates in fine art.

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So I started my fine art in 1994 when just, you know, the country was transitioning.

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I was two black students in my class in the Natal Tech then.

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I worked for a museum soon after,

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and then I got to be interested in how do we shift these establishments that are

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perceived as colonial in Indonesia.

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And they were colonial.

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Culturally, they were there to position whiteness.

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a black experience with museums around things like craft,

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you know,

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ethnography,

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things that are very,

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very problematic in how they are positioned as a black cultural practice,

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leaving out very important works,

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right?

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So I was invited there and I chose to be in the audience development division.

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It was called the business division.

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And I was then tasked to create a program

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as a prelude to the exhibition, just to bring attention to the museum.

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Because the museum never had large numbers of non-Hollanders or Dutch or white coming to that museum.

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But Holland at the same time has

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a lot of migrants from Suriname,

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from Morocco,

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you name them,

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a little bit of Turkey and the Middle East.

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So how do they then ensure that when the exhibition opens,

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The color of skin is diverse, right?

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So I had to design a program three months before my time by myself.

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I thought I was going to get support, you know, but I was just thrown in and do it.

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And I did it, you know, and it was a huge success.

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For the first time, they had...

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They had people performing things that they've never performed in that space for the first time.

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So I think for me, that's when the international space kind of allowed me to enter it.

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And my thought process from then on shifted.

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My goal was to now begin to have our voice and our thinking, our intellect.

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present in decision-making of the world within the arts space,

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especially visual arts,

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because those decisions are made at those high levels.

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They define how the world sees meaning, but also perceive Africa.

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So shifting all these kind of perceptions became my mission.

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So I became an activist in a way, and that allowed me to enter up until the Vogue that you speak to.

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Man, you know, until you made the big time.

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Yes.

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But did that even feel like a bunch of a big time?

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Because you're already done like so much throughout the journey, right?

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Yeah.

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So did like Vogue or like any of these being on like magazines or even being on

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this podcast for that matter,

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do you ever feel like you get to a point where you're like,

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oh man,

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that was quite an achievement?

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Or does your work feel like, no man, but like I'm doing so much more stuff on the other end.

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You guys only get to see like the shiny, polished kind of version of it?

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I mean,

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to be honest,

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it's not that I'm not honest,

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because we generally say that to be honest,

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as if I'm not honest.

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The reality is that I'm living my life, you know, as much as it's work, but this is integral to my life.

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Sure.

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You know, I learn.

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I always tell my teams wherever I work,

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whoever I interact with,

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learning is the most beautiful thing to humanity.

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Every single thing, there you learn.

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And also you learn from engaging.

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Sure.

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And sometimes you discover yourself.

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Because sometimes you speak about things automatically.

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You don't remember them.

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They just come out.

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And suddenly it's like, what?

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That actually happened, you know?

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And I mean...

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For example, after the Europe came back for five years, I did well.

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Then I got a fellowship to study anywhere in the world.

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And I chose to go to a particular place, fully paid for three years.

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That's why I did my master's.

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And these things comes because of how you engage, how you share your own experiences.

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I might look quiet when I'm on the street.

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Sure.

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But when we begin to engage, let's do things.

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I like doing things, by the way.

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I want to see things happening.

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Even if it fails, it fails, but we learn from that failure.

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And that's the most exciting thing,

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that once you learn from that failure,

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you become a better person,

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a better planner.

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And also confronting, I like confronting very hostile environments.

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I was the first African to be invited to be the president

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chair of jury for the World Press Photo.

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So World Press Photo is the kind of largest platform for photojournalism and

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photography on this planet over 60 years.

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So for the first time, they had a non-European, non-white person to chair it.

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I was there.

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But since then, things have changed.

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They're beginning to diversify.

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Just for the fact that

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When I was initially invited to participate in one of their smaller programs,

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I was quite vocal in terms of how,

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for example,

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guys from New York Times,

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National Geographic,

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think about photography from the Guardian in London.

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These are like top establishment, right?

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And I said representation in images can be a killer.

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You know,

(00:18:16):
how you,

(00:18:16):
for example,

(00:18:17):
you put an image of a dead white person on the front page,

(00:18:21):
it's totally different how you do it for a man white,

(00:18:25):
right?

(00:18:25):
There is a limit of dehumanization in it.

(00:18:28):
But many people are not even aware of the fact that they're doing that because they

(00:18:33):
are stereotyped in thinking that this is how these people live and this is how...

(00:18:38):
they think about their life.

(00:18:40):
They don't cherish life because they believe that we don't cherish life in many ways.

(00:18:47):
That's how they portray us in images, right?

(00:18:50):
And these are highest top media houses.

(00:18:54):
So engaging them, I think, promoted me to be the chair of jury.

(00:19:00):
And in that, I commanded that people have to think out of their comfort zone.

(00:19:04):
Mm-hmm.

(00:19:05):
Man, I love that, man.

(00:19:06):
You know,

(00:19:07):
you're touching on something that I always see,

(00:19:09):
and maybe not so much in pictures,

(00:19:10):
but in videos.

(00:19:11):
You know,

(00:19:12):
when you go on social media,

(00:19:13):
you're bound to see someone,

(00:19:18):
and I look at that,

(00:19:18):
I'm like,

(00:19:19):
but that's a human being.

(00:19:21):
You know, that person has a story before he got into all of those drugs.

(00:19:24):
So why don't we highlight that about him?

(00:19:26):
That might actually remind him of the good days and the good person he actually is.

(00:19:31):
depression.

(00:19:32):
Depression is a killer.

(00:19:34):
We find solace in many, I find solace in drumming.

(00:19:38):
But some people, because there is no sense of

(00:19:44):
Survival,

(00:19:45):
going beyond,

(00:19:45):
also getting into survival mode can be a problem because once you're in survival mode,

(00:19:51):
you're brought into a space where you're always on the defense.

(00:19:54):
You don't attack.

(00:19:56):
And it's easier for you to fall.

(00:19:58):
And drugs can take you from smoking weed, and if you're not lucky, end up in Nyaope.

(00:20:08):
It was Leheto, the CEO.

(00:20:09):
Yes, ma'am.

(00:20:11):
Three months down the line,

(00:20:12):
I'm in the middle of the street,

(00:20:14):
and that video is like,

(00:20:18):
oh,

(00:20:20):
but they forget that killer who used to be CEO here.

(00:20:23):
So I think for me, it's that wellness across the world.

(00:20:29):
Mental wellness is the biggest killer.

(00:20:33):
The biggest killer of families, of individuals, of souls.

(00:20:37):
I think also it's a blocker of progress.

(00:20:41):
South Africa, for example, I don't think we are okay.

(00:20:45):
I don't think we are traumatized.

(00:20:46):
We've never dealt with the trauma.

(00:20:48):
We don't deal with the trauma.

(00:20:50):
We've normalized the trauma that we subject to others.

(00:20:53):
I mean, the level of violence and violation around that, we're desensitized.

(00:20:58):
We don't feel that we need to respond.

(00:21:01):
I mean, you see videos of something happening in Kojozi, downtown, Kojozi Street.

(00:21:05):
If you laugh about it, Horodaha.

(00:21:10):
Because we've accepted that, you know, danger is us.

(00:21:15):
But how are we going to progress?

(00:21:17):
You know, we will never find ways of going beyond if we don't begin to shift our mindset.

(00:21:25):
And that can happen in many ways,

(00:21:26):
including things like the podcast,

(00:21:28):
but also at centers as a whole,

(00:21:31):
music can do that.

(00:21:32):
But we just need to find ways of coming together and dealing with it.

(00:21:36):
And,

(00:21:36):
you know,

(00:21:36):
you touch on so many different things and,

(00:21:39):
you know,

(00:21:39):
talking about the healing that we need as a nation.

(00:21:43):
I look at everything we say about men and fathers and fathers are missing in action.

(00:21:47):
Like, yes, because these men didn't they went from like survival to like make it.

(00:21:51):
You know, there was no.

(00:21:53):
OK, guys, these are the gradual steps to get you to that level of making.

(00:21:57):
And I often look at the pictures as well.

(00:21:59):
So, you know, sometimes I'm looking for graphics for maybe a piece of work that I'm putting out.

(00:22:04):
And I struggle to find black men in different expressions, you know, in different expressions.

(00:22:10):
You either see a black man as very successful,

(00:22:11):
like I said,

(00:22:12):
or he's back in the village,

(00:22:13):
you know,

(00:22:14):
or he's like in some kind of,

(00:22:16):
you know,

(00:22:16):
sorry type of position,

(00:22:18):
depressed kind of thing,

(00:22:19):
compromise,

(00:22:19):
like you say.

(00:22:21):
but the art world man is a place that gives us that you know that vision that

(00:22:27):
difference in the nuances that men and actually black people go through as a

(00:22:31):
general but I mean we are manned up and we talk to men specifically

(00:22:35):
So how would you say,

(00:22:36):
man,

(00:22:37):
what's one way that we could do,

(00:22:40):
maybe I could do as well through my social media,

(00:22:42):
someone carrying a phone,

(00:22:43):
you know,

(00:22:43):
how can we look for those stories to kind of enrich the black story and not just

(00:22:48):
only tell like these negative,

(00:22:50):
hey,

(00:22:51):
but the AKA got shot and suddenly here's the video.

(00:22:54):
Dude, respect the man's family.

(00:22:57):
So how can we do that and change the way we report stuff or share it?

(00:23:01):
I mean, it's a difficult one because obviously it's to mobilize in this country.

(00:23:07):
You can only mobilize if you're EFF style, if I take it in vulgar way.

(00:23:12):
That's the unfortunate thing.

(00:23:15):
The biggest mobilizers, they use Valka, they use fear, they create animals.

(00:23:19):
That's how we exist.

(00:23:22):
So people have also been conscientized in looking for that,

(00:23:25):
to be attracted to that type of fear,

(00:23:27):
mongering,

(00:23:28):
that if you don't vote for us,

(00:23:30):
Mandela will rise.

(00:23:34):
So it's a construct that is highly problematic and it counters how to do things.

(00:23:42):
I mean,

(00:23:42):
even in religion,

(00:23:43):
religion plays around fear,

(00:23:44):
you know,

(00:23:45):
as much as you can,

(00:23:46):
but you are forced to be in a certain kind of mindset because if you're not,

(00:23:52):
the devil will catch you.

(00:23:54):
So that fear play needs to stop.

(00:23:57):
And I think, I mean, I was just in my group, my ninjas group.

(00:24:02):
There are guys who just share things without understanding that these things are problematic.

(00:24:07):
So I always question, like, when you forward, do you forward because...

(00:24:11):
In other group, they enjoyed it.

(00:24:13):
And it's just for us thinking that we'll enjoy this without context.

(00:24:17):
It starts from this intimate spaces.

(00:24:19):
Because I think before it used to be go straight, then go cornering.

(00:24:23):
Because street corners are now on WhatsApp, right?

(00:24:26):
So for me, it's we men need to begin to attack each other in those spaces.

(00:24:30):
There are guys who post very misogynistic things on Facebook.

(00:24:34):
They laugh about it because for them it's normal.

(00:24:38):
it's not normal it's not normal I don't look at WhatsApp group let's confront it

(00:24:46):
let's write about it let's conscientize ourselves but also I think encourage people

(00:24:49):
to self-reflect you know and from that individual level I think you begin to

(00:24:55):
possibly impact somebody positively that they will go to another group and begin to

(00:25:01):
spread that and I mean I remember at some stage there was one of some of the first

(00:25:07):
people

(00:25:08):
main matches was at Ellis Park, which I thought was a beautiful way of thinking about it.

(00:25:13):
Where men say like, guys, we have to stop.

(00:25:15):
Let's mobilize ourselves and let's get into a concrete one space and talk about

(00:25:19):
these issues at that mass level.

(00:25:21):
But,

(00:25:23):
Sometimes when we leave, we go back to those problematic spaces without that large support.

(00:25:29):
So I believe, let's start in these WhatsApps.

(00:25:32):
Let's begin to spread these messages there.

(00:25:35):
Let's begin to spread the codes from Beko in there.

(00:25:39):
codes that begin to be progressive in their nature that will help us heal.

(00:25:44):
You know, healing has to start from the energy closest to you.

(00:25:49):
Not the Mandela energy or the Zuma energy or the Tutu energies.

(00:25:55):
How are you going to change that?

(00:25:56):
That's so far away.

(00:25:57):
It is too far.

(00:25:58):
You know, start here.

(00:26:00):
Start from your immediate, immediate person.

(00:26:02):
And I strongly believe that, and that's the measure, that's what we're adopting here.

(00:26:08):
You know, we believe in your...

(00:26:11):
one-on-one interaction with the act, but also just engagement and dialogue.

(00:26:16):
But also I think once we have that,

(00:26:18):
the communal becomes easier,

(00:26:20):
the gathering becomes easier,

(00:26:22):
and it grows.

(00:26:22):
We create communities of, like, you know, the beehive, you know, from one little one to multiple.

(00:26:29):
So I think that's one way of thinking around how do we change our world, you know.

(00:26:34):
We live in difficult times, and I think it has to start from the closest person that's next to you.

(00:26:39):
You speak in my language right now.

(00:26:41):
Because one of the key things I always say about manned up conversations is one brother at a time.

(00:26:47):
I can look for impact and like, yeah, man, I want a thousand people to watch this and hear it.

(00:26:52):
But if one guy listening to this can be like, yo, I know these people touch my heart, man.

(00:26:57):
I'm actually going to pass it on.

(00:26:58):
That's what it is.

(00:26:58):
That's exactly what we need to do.

(00:27:00):
Yeah.

(00:27:00):
you and I doing this, it's healing and I feel better.

(00:27:03):
Yes, sir.

(00:27:04):
And the more I feel the better energy,

(00:27:06):
I think it begins to translate to whoever who's sitting by themselves,

(00:27:10):
being part of,

(00:27:11):
becomes a three,

(00:27:12):
three way.

(00:27:13):
Yes, sir.

(00:27:13):
Because the reality is that as we,

(00:27:16):
both of us are communicating,

(00:27:17):
we're actually extending our energies to that person behind that screen.

(00:27:22):
And that person's energies begin to also derive value in a way begin to engage with what we're saying.

(00:27:29):
And I think,

(00:27:32):
that's how possibly we should think strategically around access to these

(00:27:36):
technologies that are individual you know television is easy to see three or four

(00:27:41):
or five but the cell phone is you and yourself in your bedroom sleeping about to go

(00:27:46):
to sleep watching this

(00:27:48):
This conversation.

(00:27:49):
And once you go to bed, the dreams become enhanced in many ways.

(00:27:56):
I love it.

(00:27:57):
I love it.

(00:27:58):
I know we don't have so much time.

(00:28:00):
So I'm trying to get through as much as I can.

(00:28:02):
Let's see how we can push this far.

(00:28:05):
I'm loving this, by the way.

(00:28:06):
I'm loving this.

(00:28:07):
So, you know, you mentioned...

(00:28:11):
fatherhood,

(00:28:12):
mentioned parents,

(00:28:13):
mentioned both,

(00:28:15):
but there's a huge challenge with fatherhood in the country,

(00:28:18):
and I think the world over.

(00:28:20):
And I'm one of the guys,

(00:28:22):
I've said it repeatedly on the podcast,

(00:28:23):
and I don't mean to say this to kind of get anyone to be like,

(00:28:26):
oh,

(00:28:26):
I feel sorry for you,

(00:28:27):
but it's just to highlight part of the reason I do what I do is because I also miss

(00:28:31):
that fatherly interaction.

(00:28:33):
So how was your relationship with your father?

(00:28:36):
What was his influence on your life?

(00:28:39):
And possibly in what you do career-wise.

(00:28:41):
And if you have kids of your own,

(00:28:44):
how do you take some of the lessons from what your father has taught you and how

(00:28:48):
are you implementing those plus a bit of the mix of the modern world into your own

(00:28:53):
way of fathering?

(00:28:54):
My father was a hard person.

(00:28:57):
My father was one of those hard hit person by the apartheid system.

(00:29:02):
He left the village,

(00:29:05):
worked in the mines,

(00:29:08):
underground,

(00:29:08):
but also ended up being a clerk because he was one of few who could write.

(00:29:14):
And became a police man in the Sofa, like a part of Sofa town.

(00:29:19):
Subjected to supremacist kind of

(00:29:25):
within the frames that he worked within.

(00:29:28):
And I think he brought that anger back with him.

(00:29:35):
you know, he comes from a family of two and his sibling, his sister passed on in 1974.

(00:29:43):
So it became the only man that possibly was looked at.

(00:29:47):
And he gradually became successful.

(00:29:50):
One of the first shops in 1976 in the village.

(00:29:54):
So we were well off.

(00:29:56):
I should be honest about that.

(00:29:58):
But

(00:30:00):
He was a hard worker.

(00:30:01):
He was focused.

(00:30:03):
He was determined.

(00:30:05):
And I believe he was very, very loving.

(00:30:08):
You cannot have 11 kids and not have love with them.

(00:30:10):
No doubt.

(00:30:11):
You're right.

(00:30:12):
At some point, even if you don't, at some point you're like, I got something draining in here.

(00:30:18):
So, I mean, a certain part of my life I thought he hated us.

(00:30:21):
I thought he hated me.

(00:30:22):
Yeah.

(00:30:23):
But he wanted to ensure that we don't experience life like he did.

(00:30:29):
I mean, we used to go to town when he wants to go to buy, you know, stock for the shop.

(00:30:35):
And he used to call boys,

(00:30:39):
African boys,

(00:30:40):
in Petersbeck or in Beggarsford,

(00:30:42):
in Grumsdal,

(00:30:43):
in Mpopo,

(00:30:44):
Elubuwa then,

(00:30:45):
with lane bus.

(00:30:48):
Mrs. Was in front of us.

(00:30:50):
And this person is very strong.

(00:30:52):
Where he comes from, people respect him.

(00:30:55):
Some fear him because he was a huge guy also.

(00:30:58):
Big guy, tall as I am, dark and very handsome.

(00:31:01):
Analyst read.

(00:31:04):
But I would be with him behind him, and he just shouted at me.

(00:31:08):
And now he's calling a small African kid,

(00:31:11):
clean bus,

(00:31:12):
and the father's,

(00:31:13):
and they're not even laughing at him.

(00:31:15):
He's calling him, like move, right?

(00:31:18):
Or we're in a bank on the line, and he'll just give space to a white person to come in.

(00:31:24):
And it kind of confused me in many ways.

(00:31:27):
Like this very strong person,

(00:31:30):
but I didn't know about vulnerability then.

(00:31:33):
So it's a man who was determined that my children should have a better life and

(00:31:39):
should not see this,

(00:31:40):
should not experience this,

(00:31:42):
but I'm going to experience this on their behalf,

(00:31:44):
kind of a thing.

(00:31:46):
So in terms of,

(00:31:47):
I think,

(00:31:47):
strength,

(00:31:48):
one thing that I took from him is resilience and the will to persevere,

(00:31:57):
to come out of your condition.

(00:32:00):
And you have the tools to do it yourself.

(00:32:03):
Nobody will help you because he did everything by himself up until we were growing

(00:32:08):
and we started supporting the structure that we were building.

(00:32:12):
He will say you have to do things by yourself.

(00:32:17):
You have to eat your own dead.

(00:32:18):
You cannot eat your friend's dead.

(00:32:26):
And also man up, own up, take responsibility.

(00:32:31):
I think those are the principles that led me to where I am.

(00:32:37):
As much as I believe in community,

(00:32:39):
in us being together,

(00:32:41):
being able to do,

(00:32:43):
but I have to first sort myself out so that when I become part of the team,

(00:32:48):
I'm strong and ready to contribute to the team.

(00:32:52):
And how are you seeing the teamwork now?

(00:32:54):
I like what you're talking about.

(00:32:56):
You're talking about you're in a group where you call them ninjas.

(00:32:59):
And I love that because I run a support group, a men's support group.

(00:33:07):
It's mostly around mental health.

(00:33:08):
But you would know if you get into a group with men, we might start off talking about one thing.

(00:33:13):
And then it's like, gee, man, I don't know.

(00:33:16):
Men are struggling like this.

(00:33:18):
So I see a lot of cool ideas come up when we come together and start talking.

(00:33:23):
And it's mostly with men I don't know.

(00:33:26):
When it's my friends,

(00:33:27):
it's kind of like there's an awkwardness because each time he knows me this way and

(00:33:31):
I know Tommy this way and I know,

(00:33:33):
ah,

(00:33:33):
I told him I was at Tommy and Todd's when I think,

(00:33:35):
ah,

(00:33:35):
KG,

(00:33:36):
you told me this way.

(00:33:37):
So there are certain conversations that we kind of avoid with certain friends.

(00:33:41):
But I love how it just opens up.

(00:33:43):
Like, I just met you today, man.

(00:33:45):
We've spoken,

(00:33:46):
but we're talking about crazy stuff that I guarantee you,

(00:33:50):
I have a multitude of friends I've never even had these conversations with.

(00:33:54):
So when it comes to teamwork,

(00:33:56):
do you think,

(00:33:57):
is there something that's standing in the way of us as brothers?

(00:34:01):
Do you think there's like, I don't know, is it an ego thing or is it...

(00:34:05):
whatever, I guess, a status, or we just don't know each other enough.

(00:34:09):
We're just not open enough with each other.

(00:34:10):
I don't know how you... I think we build fronts.

(00:34:14):
Like, we front.

(00:34:14):
You know, we front certain kind of... Maybe that's how we met, you know, as this kind of person.

(00:34:20):
And we meet through people, and the person introduced, like, and you want to leave that ensemble.

(00:34:31):
For the duration.

(00:34:32):
So it becomes difficult to,

(00:34:35):
probably not difficult,

(00:34:36):
but a kind of,

(00:34:38):
if I speak like this,

(00:34:39):
it's going to change.

(00:34:40):
Maybe comfort.

(00:34:42):
Maybe we are comfortable in how we interact.

(00:34:46):
Because if we begin to see vulnerability in all of us, it will change probably the setup.

(00:34:51):
Because I think some groups exist because there is a certain benefit that is derived.

(00:34:57):
It's like a rhythm that's created that we enjoy.

(00:35:01):
We get a bit of adrenaline from.

(00:35:05):
Because generally there are multiple groups.

(00:35:07):
So there's this group that you know you get this.

(00:35:09):
And there's that other group that you can actually share certain things.

(00:35:13):
So with me, they are like that.

(00:35:15):
They exist.

(00:35:16):
There's a Soweto group.

(00:35:17):
There's a Bidori group.

(00:35:19):
That's the Limpopo group.

(00:35:20):
And the Limpopo group, that's when we can cry.

(00:35:23):
Because I grew up with them.

(00:35:24):
So we were babies.

(00:35:25):
We knew each other when we were kids.

(00:35:28):
But those that I've met around Josie,

(00:35:31):
and those that I've met now as an adult,

(00:35:33):
being introduced as...

(00:35:35):
Being introduced to...

(00:35:35):
It's a concert,

(00:35:36):
what,

(00:35:36):
what,

(00:35:37):
what.

(00:35:41):
So already that rapport is built, right?

(00:35:45):
But what you're saying, which I think is important, it's like we meet as strangers in Chile.

(00:35:51):
then you find,

(00:35:53):
even if it's friends of friends,

(00:35:55):
and you find that exit point to begin to speak about these deep things.

(00:36:02):
So it is true that this generally happens with kind of strangers,

(00:36:06):
in a way,

(00:36:07):
than in what is perceived as safe spaces.

(00:36:11):
Maybe those safe spaces are not safe at all.

(00:36:14):
It's safer outside of those spaces.

(00:36:18):
It's more toxic in those spaces than out.

(00:36:22):
It's like in many relationships, I think, romantic relationship where communication is bad, right?

(00:36:30):
Two people cannot allow themselves to break down and be vulnerable.

(00:36:35):
And the women or the men will find that outside.

(00:36:42):
And that will then beef up whatever confidence to come back.

(00:36:46):
So I think these are dynamics that I don't know how they can be resolved, I guess.

(00:36:53):
It's a human nature.

(00:36:56):
Yeah, you're taking me too deep.

(00:36:59):
Now I'm thinking deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep.

(00:37:02):
I'm starting to see myself in all those things, you know?

(00:37:05):
Because I mean, in my relationship, we had, I went through a bit of a patch a few years ago.

(00:37:11):
I even went to my partner's family and said like, hey, you know what?

(00:37:15):
I don't know what's happening here.

(00:37:18):
I see my partner has become vulnerable on statuses.

(00:37:23):
Oh, man.

(00:37:24):
Oh, man.

(00:37:25):
But we don't talk about this.

(00:37:28):
And now as you speak,

(00:37:29):
it's like,

(00:37:29):
yes,

(00:37:30):
I mean,

(00:37:30):
we will have friends,

(00:37:31):
but you'd rather be vulnerable outside of this community that is with you all the time.

(00:37:37):
They'll watch your back, right?

(00:37:40):
They'll take one for you, but you cannot be that vulnerable.

(00:37:45):
Yeah.

(00:37:45):
Because probably it's a sign of weakness, and you want to be the weakest link within the group.

(00:37:51):
Yeah.

(00:37:52):
Man, that's a crazy way.

(00:37:55):
It requires a conversation on its own.

(00:37:57):
That's a whole other one.

(00:37:59):
And,

(00:38:00):
you know,

(00:38:00):
we had this talk about vulnerability when you're talking about,

(00:38:04):
you know,

(00:38:04):
these safe spaces aren't so safe,

(00:38:06):
right?

(00:38:07):
And I was speaking to Julia Kerr, I think.

(00:38:11):
and she deals a lot with vulnerability and and one thing that she said to me was

(00:38:15):
you know whenever you choose your empathy bros you should be really careful and

(00:38:20):
intentional so man that goes to anyone you know you're listening to this right now

(00:38:24):
you're feeling like hey i'm going to do something and you're just gonna tell kg

(00:38:28):
because he's the closest person man i might not be that person yeah you know next

(00:38:32):
thing you're gonna see the stuff on my on my status of what's happening

(00:38:36):
time you know yeah you know or maybe i'm having a few beers with friends and then i

(00:38:40):
expose all of that yeah so so let's be intentional around that guys and you know i

(00:38:45):
think if you feel like you don't have an outlet maybe social media is the last

(00:38:48):
place you should run you know just to put that out there if you're considering it

(00:38:52):
yeah but anyway man let's let's get back into our into our bag i just say something

(00:38:56):
that's important right there

(00:39:01):
Yeah.

(00:39:02):
And sorry to your lady for exposing your stuff here, man.

(00:39:04):
No, we good.

(00:39:05):
We good.

(00:39:06):
Yes, sir.

(00:39:07):
She knows that I'm an artist and expressive.

(00:39:10):
And I want to talk, you know, you mentioned depression.

(00:39:13):
And when I look at artists, man, you know, there's this saying that art imitates life.

(00:39:19):
You can actually reverse it and it still kind of works the same way.

(00:39:23):
Whenever like a huge artist goes through like depression or some kind of mental

(00:39:27):
health challenge and they pass away,

(00:39:30):
it becomes like this thing,

(00:39:32):
you know,

(00:39:32):
it's like,

(00:39:33):
man,

(00:39:33):
he becomes even bigger than he was when he was alive.

(00:39:36):
And we kind of like worship death.

(00:39:38):
As you say,

(00:39:38):
there's like this awkwardness about us liking the negative and like spreading and

(00:39:43):
running with it to make it news,

(00:39:45):
I guess,

(00:39:45):
which makes us kind of relevant to the conversation.

(00:39:48):
But why would you say like that,

(00:39:50):
like the art world,

(00:39:53):
there's so much depression in there,

(00:39:55):
like so much mental health challenges.

(00:39:57):
Is it because you're venturing onto a very spiritual journey when you're in the arts?

(00:40:05):
For me, the arts are highly spiritual.

(00:40:06):
They're on a different element.

(00:40:09):
We always say the heritage is there to represent the past.

(00:40:13):
It's a record of where we come from.

(00:40:16):
culture is a way of life you know this is how we we define our day-to-day how we

(00:40:21):
interact with each other how we think and art has this element of defining how the

(00:40:26):
future should be you know from recording the past because it's kind of influenced

(00:40:30):
by the record of the past but also kind of uh unpacking and dissecting the dynamics

(00:40:35):
of the current you know and and

(00:40:38):
creating a space that begins to project the future.

(00:40:44):
You know,

(00:40:44):
it happens across,

(00:40:45):
you know,

(00:40:45):
from watching,

(00:40:47):
you know,

(00:40:47):
the Star Wars of the 1970s,

(00:40:51):
how Lucas basically defined certain technologies that we're using right now that

(00:40:56):
are normal,

(00:40:57):
right?

(00:40:57):
And it's funny to think of that it was an artistic concept that influenced that.

(00:41:03):
the world of technology and innovation, right?

(00:41:06):
So there is that metaphysical way.

(00:41:13):
I think there's a world that artists get to enter, like diviners, you know, like...

(00:41:21):
As an artist, especially if you go through training, you begin to think much deeper.

(00:41:31):
You become more analytic.

(00:41:35):
I think there's an element of research which might not be necessarily collecting data,

(00:41:39):
but collecting data from...

(00:41:41):
Life in itself, psychology, place as usual.

(00:41:46):
Some people, I think, actually are psychiatric.

(00:41:51):
I mean, there's artists that were understood to be mad.

(00:41:56):
You know, your Jackson Pollocks, but they produce amazing works.

(00:42:01):
And I think if you're not equipped enough to deal with this information,

(00:42:06):
to deal with this dynamics of the complexity of existence itself,

(00:42:12):
you might break.

(00:42:15):
Sometimes you produce so much of human content that you cannot deal with the fact that this is within me.

(00:42:27):
I cannot, it's too heavy.

(00:42:30):
Or at times you push and influence the world,

(00:42:36):
but the returns materially are not as significant as how much you've contributed.

(00:42:43):
And begin to ask yourself those questions.

(00:42:45):
I'm giving so much, but I'm not getting.

(00:42:47):
And there's no support.

(00:42:48):
And I think many artists tend to live by themselves.

(00:42:52):
As much as you're on stage, you know, blurring by the mic and the world, you go back into your own space.

(00:43:00):
And you find emptiness because you deal with so much already within your thinking

(00:43:06):
process and your psychology itself.

(00:43:09):
So it is very, very complex.

(00:43:12):
I mean, you're Basquiat.

(00:43:13):
Some of the most amazing artists kill themselves.

(00:43:17):
Jim Hendricks.

(00:43:20):
It's how much are you equipped to deal with this human responsibility.

(00:43:27):
And it's a huge responsibility.

(00:43:29):
It's a huge responsibility.

(00:43:31):
It's a huge one.

(00:43:33):
You're mentioning like such, you know, robust care and a bunch of different roles.

(00:43:37):
And you mentioned training.

(00:43:39):
You mentioned support.

(00:43:41):
And those are very crucial things,

(00:43:42):
I think,

(00:43:43):
for any industry,

(00:43:44):
for anything that you kind of take part in,

(00:43:48):
something that you're trying to create.

(00:43:50):
So, you know, in terms of support, in terms of training, who are the people that are meant to be?

(00:43:56):
into what you do now and you actually still have people that you look to and be

(00:44:01):
like hey you know man i'm actually in a bit of a twist right now hey let me pull up

(00:44:06):
my phone you know do you have those people yeah um it's difficult to to to mention

(00:44:12):
a single name i mean there are individuals who were there and they will open a door

(00:44:18):
yeah by connecting you to go beyond um

(00:44:24):
But I never had a person who was assigned, even assigned by myself to me, to mentor me.

(00:44:31):
I think inspiration came from multiple points.

(00:44:35):
Because as a post-apartheid individual who was inspired to be part of the change,

(00:44:43):
and I was looking for energies from all over,

(00:44:46):
not from a single point.

(00:44:47):
And I think that's why I'm here.

(00:44:48):
You know, you ask like,

(00:44:53):
a black person at this position in this space, which is rare.

(00:44:57):
I think it's because I allowed myself to have kind of multiple sources of

(00:45:02):
inspiration so that my worldview becomes quite dynamic.

(00:45:08):
Agile is important so that I'm quick to respond to shifts.

(00:45:13):
Not necessarily that I'm successful all the time.

(00:45:15):
You know, it's not about that at all.

(00:45:17):
It's about failures.

(00:45:19):
You know, trying out things, failing, and getting to the next step.

(00:45:22):
And I think the most important thing is failures, but seeing the next step becomes important.

(00:45:28):
So I had many friends, you know, and many...

(00:45:35):
colleagues that impacted on my journeys,

(00:45:38):
you know,

(00:45:39):
and it's going to be difficult to name one or two because I'm going to live out the 10th,

(00:45:44):
the 20th,

(00:45:44):
the 100th.

(00:45:45):
So I would say, I mean, for me, life itself, humanity inspires me.

(00:45:50):
You know, human experiences inspires me.

(00:45:54):
Because I believe I come from a very difficult time.

(00:45:56):
You know, me and many others, I lived half of my life in a part of South Africa, which is history now.

(00:46:03):
And I think that for me, it has equipped me to

(00:46:07):
To always find opportunity in every single moment that I encounter.

(00:46:11):
And that's why it's very difficult to say I had a,

(00:46:14):
but my father's way of thinking around,

(00:46:19):
don't let yourself to be here.

(00:46:24):
Don't let yourself to remain here.

(00:46:26):
Always find solutions to yourself.

(00:46:29):
I know so yes I have depended on other people because I wouldn't possibly be where

(00:46:36):
I am without somehow a certain level of dependence but a dependence is inspired by

(00:46:42):
my own initiatives yeah

(00:46:44):
So that's something,

(00:46:44):
I think,

(00:46:45):
one thing that is the biggest weakness in our country regarding our young black people,

(00:46:53):
but also not necessarily young only,

(00:46:56):
to begin to look into yourself.

(00:46:58):
You know,

(00:46:58):
the strength lies within you,

(00:47:00):
not with Julius Malema and not with Jacob Zuma,

(00:47:04):
not with Ramaphosa.

(00:47:05):
It's within you.

(00:47:06):
The change that you want has to come from within you.

(00:47:11):
You have to be intentional,

(00:47:12):
the term intentional,

(00:47:13):
about wanting for my environment to be able to accept me,

(00:47:19):
or accept a little bit of the energy that I have.

(00:47:21):
And probably things will begin to, you know, blossom.

(00:47:24):
And many of us, it has to start with healing.

(00:47:29):
We need to accept that we are traumatized.

(00:47:31):
We need to understand that our dignity is eroded.

(00:47:36):
by mere the fact that the environments that we live in are horrible.

(00:47:39):
You know, coming out of your four-room house, the streets are dirty.

(00:47:45):
There's no sense of cleanness, just to be clean.

(00:47:52):
Every kasi you go,

(00:47:54):
you know,

(00:47:54):
you might,

(00:47:54):
that's when I take out Coca-Cola bottles and things that I've been eating,

(00:48:03):
but I never do it in the city.

(00:48:04):
Yeah, you know, so it's almost as if it's a comfort dirt, it's a comfort zone.

(00:48:14):
You know,

(00:48:15):
so all these things can be shifted if we begin to really look within and really

(00:48:21):
define these possibilities that we can achieve collectively,

(00:48:25):
but it has to start with an individual.

(00:48:29):
man, how often do you look into yourself, man?

(00:48:32):
How often do you sit by yourself and actually ask yourself important questions?

(00:48:36):
I think sometimes we talk about Portuguese and government and these things,

(00:48:39):
and I often sit and think,

(00:48:41):
but what's this guy going to do for me?

(00:48:42):
Because he's just campaigning, right?

(00:48:44):
He's just waiting for another vote.

(00:48:46):
Ah, KG voted, cool.

(00:48:47):
That's even more talk for me in Parliament.

(00:48:51):
So I think let's not lose focus of our mission, our personal mission and our politics.

(00:48:57):
personal purpose yeah right maybe make friends with that man and start analyzing a

(00:49:01):
little bit about yeah man why am i here yeah it's a very existential question to

(00:49:06):
ask but i think it's very necessary and important yeah yeah um yeah so you know

(00:49:11):
you're talking about something and

(00:49:13):
I have to bring you back to this.

(00:49:14):
We're talking to men here and a lot of men don't have a definition for themselves

(00:49:20):
of what manhood is,

(00:49:21):
what masculinity is.

(00:49:25):
I see myself as a man who is constantly evolving.

(00:49:27):
I'm constantly learning and I'm on a journey.

(00:49:30):
That's as far as I can define myself.

(00:49:33):
But how would you speak to manhood in your understanding and

(00:49:38):
especially with the experiences that you've had.

(00:49:40):
You've seen the rough and tough of South Africa and now you've come out of it and you've travelled.

(00:49:46):
So I'm sure that worldview gives you a very interesting definition.

(00:49:51):
Look,

(00:49:51):
yeah,

(00:49:51):
I think spaces,

(00:49:55):
geography have a whole lot of impact in how one end up possibly defining their meaning.

(00:50:04):
Right.

(00:50:06):
And for me, I don't think men are static as such, right?

(00:50:14):
It's almost as if it shifts, you know, depending on the environment that one enters.

(00:50:21):
If you enter a hostile environment,

(00:50:24):
your manhood shifts to begin again, to align itself and to be ready.

(00:50:33):
It's almost as if the society says,

(00:50:38):
as a man you always have to be ready for anything,

(00:50:44):
because that's an environment,

(00:50:45):
that's a life that we're exposed to every single day.

(00:50:51):
I don't think it's consistent.

(00:50:52):
For example,

(00:50:53):
if I go home and I'm with my sisters,

(00:50:57):
I totally become,

(00:50:58):
this level of femininity comes in,

(00:51:01):
in how I laugh,

(00:51:03):
the jokes that they talk about.

(00:51:06):
And just attitude is important also, again, in terms of our one position.

(00:51:12):
It's all about attitude.

(00:51:14):
So, again, it shifts.

(00:51:17):
For me, it's a state of mind.

(00:51:20):
It's attitude, you know, the environment that you're in.

(00:51:24):
I think kind of there's chemicals that are in your system that begins to,

(00:51:29):
automatically begins to,

(00:51:31):
if I walk in a small street,

(00:51:33):
you know.

(00:51:35):
Then the guard is up.

(00:51:36):
The guard.

(00:51:37):
Anything might happen.

(00:51:38):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:51:39):
And I don't think it's only for men.

(00:51:40):
I think also women or non-confirming people.

(00:51:44):
I think it's just a human thing.

(00:51:45):
Maybe...

(00:51:49):
Yeah, besides the physicality of it, I think it's always in the mind.

(00:51:56):
It's always personal and individual.

(00:51:59):
It's not, I want to be a man like that man.

(00:52:04):
I want to be that human because of how they think and how they do things, not because they are a man.

(00:52:12):
So I think maybe as men, we need to become human.

(00:52:19):
You need to become human beings.

(00:52:22):
And maybe by that transition, even if it's just testing it, just test it at home.

(00:52:30):
Just be human.

(00:52:33):
and get a sense of how then it becomes, right?

(00:52:38):
Because manhood has been damaged by what men do to this planet.

(00:52:46):
All wars, rapes, murder, the destruction, the greed, it's men, it's us.

(00:52:57):
Do I want to define myself within that context?

(00:52:59):
No.

(00:52:59):
I'd rather define myself as a human

(00:53:03):
who identifies as a man, right?

(00:53:08):
Maybe I'll also find space to heal.

(00:53:12):
I don't put too much on myself to maintain a social construct of man, maleness, right?

(00:53:19):
So for me, it's exit, become human.

(00:53:23):
And then when you want to

(00:53:26):
whatever environment,

(00:53:27):
maybe take up that,

(00:53:29):
dress up that man for that moment,

(00:53:31):
not to distract,

(00:53:32):
but to enjoy.

(00:53:33):
Because that's something that we also need to enjoy and celebrate.

(00:53:37):
Because that's how life has brought you in this form.

(00:53:43):
But the first thing is that we are human.

(00:53:46):
Man, I love it, man.

(00:53:49):
You know, you're speaking such, such, I think, I feel like you've listened to like Mandap before.

(00:53:56):
You know, it's all about humanity.

(00:53:59):
A lot of men have decided for a, hey, now it's king.

(00:54:03):
I want to be like that man.

(00:54:04):
And it's all about humanity.

(00:54:05):
like you're saying it's not about a feature in that person or a virtue or something

(00:54:09):
that you like specifically it's like no i want to be this guy in literally

(00:54:14):
everything he does and you're denying yourself of an opportunity of living and

(00:54:17):
experiencing such a beautiful life i know we're going through a ton of shit in the

(00:54:21):
country but life is beautiful and don't rob yourself or deny yourself an

(00:54:25):
opportunity to experience the beauty of it man i guarantee you you know you'll have

(00:54:30):
challenge

(00:54:31):
you know that's something you also have to accept you're going to have challenges

(00:54:34):
but that challenge is that's what brings out the beauty the gold in you man so go

(00:54:39):
ahead and live and living also is simple things like you need to be vulnerable and

(00:54:45):
do a garden grow that spinach you know you'll eat it

(00:54:51):
And it's like from your ground.

(00:54:52):
Yeah.

(00:54:53):
It's just so much more special, right?

(00:54:55):
Yeah.

(00:54:55):
Yeah.

(00:54:55):
Brother spinach and then rip it and eat it and you feel that you're eating the

(00:55:01):
sweat of your,

(00:55:02):
from your forehead.

(00:55:03):
Come on, guys.

(00:55:04):
I know you're living in a suburb, bro.

(00:55:06):
Come on.

(00:55:06):
You can do a little urban garden.

(00:55:08):
Come on, bro.

(00:55:09):
Yes.

(00:55:10):
Yes.

(00:55:11):
But I know, I've got two more questions, man, before you wrap this up.

(00:55:15):
And the last or second last question is,

(00:55:18):
you know,

(00:55:18):
my last guest often asks this question of,

(00:55:21):
you know,

(00:55:21):
how do you want to see men live,

(00:55:23):
men,

(00:55:24):
and experience themselves,

(00:55:25):
which we're talking about now.

(00:55:27):
And he mentioned something so great.

(00:55:28):
He was like, man, just hug someone.

(00:55:29):
Yeah.

(00:55:30):
hug somebody and tell them you love them.

(00:55:32):
And you don't have to be like no homo or come up with all of these things to try and disguise it.

(00:55:37):
Like, dude, I love you.

(00:55:39):
That's enough.

(00:55:40):
So how would you want to see men kind of live and express themselves, man, going forward?

(00:55:46):
You know, maybe in like a good 10 years.

(00:55:48):
I know it's not going to happen tomorrow.

(00:55:51):
Look, I think for me, I probably won't be in the space to give a kind of a...

(00:56:01):
an utopian kind of answer because we live in difficult times.

(00:56:07):
Men need to understand that they are tortured, they're traumatized.

(00:56:15):
Self-reflect.

(00:56:17):
Allow yourself to cry.

(00:56:18):
Allow yourself to deal with the challenges that are within you.

(00:56:23):
The environment is nothing.

(00:56:25):
You can navigate.

(00:56:26):
But in that navigation, it has to be inspired by

(00:56:30):
the sense of being human, loving.

(00:56:34):
I think we entered the world that has love as a space, as a moment to appreciate that we exist.

(00:56:49):
No matter how much pain, we still exist.

(00:56:52):
And I think there are spaces, there are humans that exist that you will find connection with.

(00:57:00):
But that has to first start with it.

(00:57:02):
I think let's begin to share love.

(00:57:08):
You know, let's begin to, our attitude should shift.

(00:57:13):
And I think also important,

(00:57:16):
let's begin to take responsibility in changing the dynamics,

(00:57:22):
you know,

(00:57:22):
of how as communities we...

(00:57:26):
We deal and respond to those around us.

(00:57:33):
When your friend start doing something that you understand that this is immoral, speak out.

(00:57:43):
Let's begin to watch each other in ways that are progressive.

(00:57:49):
We need to build a new society.

(00:57:50):
We need to build futures for the people that we're bringing on this planet.

(00:57:56):
Wow, man, I love that.

(00:57:57):
You know, you talk about calling people out, right?

(00:58:00):
It's like,

(00:58:01):
yeah,

(00:58:01):
sure,

(00:58:02):
you can call someone out on social media and do it in a very cancel culture kind of way.

(00:58:08):
But there's a concept of calling people in, right?

(00:58:10):
So if you're on the same WhatsApp group,

(00:58:12):
if I know you personally,

(00:58:13):
man,

(00:58:13):
I can call you and say,

(00:58:14):
dude,

(00:58:15):
let's go have a beer,

(00:58:16):
you know,

(00:58:16):
and I can have the conversation with you.

(00:58:18):
Listen,

(00:58:18):
you know,

(00:58:18):
you shared this thing on a group or you're doing this and that at home or whatever

(00:58:22):
behavior that I'm seeing.

(00:58:24):
And let's talk about what's going on, you know.

(00:58:26):
So guys, if we can do that for each other, you can do that for your friend.

(00:58:30):
I promise you, man, your relationship grows so much more, right?

(00:58:33):
They appreciate you so much more because you're not just coming from a point of attack,

(00:58:37):
but you're also coming from a point of,

(00:58:39):
I want to understand because I do not get this whole vibe that you're putting out.

(00:58:44):
So let's also be a little bit compassionate to each other.

(00:58:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(00:58:49):
I mean,

(00:58:49):
I really love the fact that you say calling people in,

(00:58:52):
because I used out,

(00:58:53):
and out also is problematic.

(00:58:55):
Yeah, bring people in.

(00:58:57):
Exactly.

(00:58:58):
Come and share this.

(00:58:59):
And I think it's hug, basically, because that's what hug does, right?

(00:59:03):
It does that.

(00:59:05):
It does that.

(00:59:06):
It's very, very important.

(00:59:07):
You know?

(00:59:08):
Yeah.

(00:59:09):
Man, I love that.

(00:59:10):
Well, I think we're at the final point of this.

(00:59:13):
But,

(00:59:13):
you know,

(00:59:14):
I can't obviously cut this off without talking about this beautiful space that

(00:59:17):
you've got here,

(00:59:18):
man.

(00:59:18):
Yes, yes.

(00:59:19):
So what's the next thing?

(00:59:22):
Maybe let's say we're in March right now.

(00:59:25):
So in the next two to three months, what you got working here?

(00:59:29):
We do multiple things that includes film screenings.

(00:59:33):
Every month we have the first Friday film screening, film club.

(00:59:38):
So we're inviting young filmmakers,

(00:59:40):
established filmmakers to come in the space and watch films and have wine,

(00:59:44):
have tea,

(00:59:45):
have coffee and socialize.

(00:59:47):
We have a number of exhibitions that are coming up.

(00:59:53):
One of them is looking at the 100 years of the University of Pretoria art collection.

(00:59:59):
So we're beginning to partner with the university to ensure that the artists in the

(01:00:02):
university get to see the light of day beyond the walls of the campus.

(01:00:08):
And that will be attached with,

(01:00:11):
I think for parents,

(01:00:12):
they should know that they can actually bring their kids here on weekends.

(01:00:16):
We have holiday programs they can give them here.

(01:00:19):
And we have a bouquet of educational, fun things for them to do.

(01:00:25):
We're going to be launching a weekend market,

(01:00:28):
possibly at the end of this quarter,

(01:00:31):
where we're going to be giving opportunity to artists to come and present and sell

(01:00:35):
their works here at food stalls.

(01:00:38):
We're creating a...

(01:00:41):
There's a partnership that we're establishing with the food sciences within the university,

(01:00:46):
looking at indigenous crops,

(01:00:49):
edible plants,

(01:00:51):
also medicinal plants.

(01:00:52):
And we bring in chefs, contemporary chefs, to package those.

(01:00:57):
And we have a feast.

(01:00:59):
And we have music.

(01:01:00):
So we are a very social space, much as we present art, we are a social space.

(01:01:04):
And we're finalizing a program on wellness to begin to create platforms for people

(01:01:11):
to come in and reflect and get support if needs be.

(01:01:16):
But the space becomes a space of reflection,

(01:01:18):
of interrogation,

(01:01:20):
of probing,

(01:01:21):
but also eventually just around overall holistic wellness of us as humans through art.

(01:01:27):
Yes, sir.

(01:01:28):
Yeah.

(01:01:29):
But they can check us also on our website because we do have updates on social media on a weekly basis.

(01:01:35):
So, man, if you're listening to this, man, make sure that you go to the show notes.

(01:01:39):
We're going to add all of those details, website, social media, stuff that's coming up.

(01:01:44):
We'll update it, obviously, on a regular.

(01:01:46):
So be sure to check it out if you are in Pretoria.

(01:01:49):
If you are not from Pretoria, man, when you come through here, make sure that you start at Javed UP.

(01:01:55):
I think there's this beautiful stuff for you guys to see here.

(01:01:58):
We'll take some shots to use around some of the video.

(01:02:02):
I think that would be a great thing, right?

(01:02:04):
Much love.

(01:02:05):
Right, man.

(01:02:06):
So, Mr. Lekheto, I appreciate you, sir.

(01:02:09):
Hug.

(01:02:10):
Let's do it the right way.

(01:02:12):
I appreciate you.

(01:02:15):
Thank you.

(01:02:16):
Thank you for coming through and blessing us.

(01:02:19):
Man, it's been another installment of Man Up Conversations.

(01:02:21):
Guys, peace and love, man.

(01:02:23):
We'll catch you on the flip side.